Conflict 101: Conflict in the Workplace with Karin Hurt and David Dye

Karen and David are the award winning authors of six books, including Courageous [00:01:00]Cultures, How to Build Teams of Micro Innovators, Problem Solvers and Customer Advocates, and Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict. A former Verizon Wireless Executive, Karen was named to Inc. Magazine’s list of Great Leadership Speakers.

David Dai is a former executive and elected official. Karen and David are committed to their philanthropic initiative, Winning Wells, building clean water wells for the people of Cambodia. Hi, Karen and David. How are you? Good. Thanks so much for having us.

David: Delighted to be with you.

Porschia: Great. I’m delighted to have you both before we jump in and dig into conflict.

First, we want to know a little more about both of you. Tell me about when you all were seven years old.

Karin: When I was seven years old, I was doing everything I could to get discovered. I wanted to be [00:02:00] like on TV being on the Donny and Marie show singing. So I would wander around grocery stores, singing and dancing and hoping people would notice me.

It did not work.

Porschia: I love that.

David: When when I was seven, I think I was playing in the mud and reading books. If I fast forward up to age 11, though, those are some of my earliest memories of leadership. I was the oldest of six children. And and as a. Oldest brother in that situation, I was asked to lead my younger siblings quite a bit.

And so sometimes by default, sometimes by delegation. And so none of my leadership at that point was particularly elegant or good, but I tried some early lessons early on.

Porschia: Yeah, I’m sure. And David, I have an undergraduate degree in psychology. And one thing that I just liked researching on my own was birth order psychology and being the oldest, there’s some kind of common personality traits or I guess, attributes to that.

So I’m [00:03:00] sure you were a leader very early on.

David: Yeah. I’m afraid I fit some of those cliche older sibling things fairly well.

Porschia: So what were your first jobs?

Karin: My very first besides babysitting, which I did from when I was really little I was a lifeguard and a swim team coach and a swim instructor.

And so I spent a lot of time with smelling like chlorine.

David: And for me, I, if she smelled like chlorine, I smelled like gasoline. Cause some of my first work was at a gas station. I was, I would, Doing a cleanup work and scrubbing the pumps and all that good stuff. And then eventually graduated from that to digging ditches and installing sprinkler systems.

So those were some of my early jobs. I

Porschia: love it. So both of you were very helpful at perhaps saving lives, Karen, in the water and David, you might’ve been helping to assist with saving some lives when it comes to cars.

Karin: I don’t know if I saved any [00:04:00] lives, but I taught a lot of kids how to do the breaststroke.

David: And I will say this, I took pride. My, my gas station was the cleanest, shiniest station that I ever had a chance to visit. So that was important to me.

Porschia: I love that. I love that. So tell us about some highlights or pivotal moments in your career before you guys started your own businesses.

Karin: Yeah. So David, you want to go first with that one or?

David: Sure. One that comes to mind, that’s really directly related to our topic about conflict and work today is very early in my career, I had a CEO that I was working for who was doing a marketing event and he was doing it in a way that I thought lacked integrity. It did not feel good to me and I didn’t know what to do about that.

And I didn’t say anything because. So I’ve spent several days, nights doing not sleeping well. And finally I popped my cork. I didn’t use any of the tools that are in our book or anything like that. But, and I just, I don’t like this. It [00:05:00] doesn’t feel like it’s got integrity. I can’t be a part of it.

And the pivotal moment was I really expected to either be told, okay, do it or else, or if you don’t like it, there’s the door, but I didn’t get fired. Instead. He said, David, I don’t see it that way. I don’t think it lacks integrity at all, but I don’t want you to violate your conscience. And then he asked me a really good question.

What can we do to make it work? I hadn’t thought about that before. So it didn’t take long. I thought for a moment, I said what if we did this made one, Twist and how we approached it. It would put it in total alignment for everybody. I would feel good about it. He said, sure, let’s do that. And, I was so grateful for that moment because when we’re talking about conflict at work, I know we’ll talk about that later, but it, for me was one of those really important lessons in life that if you don’t say something, if you don’t speak up, if you don’t try to do something different.

You’re depriving other people of the chance to make a different choice and nothing can get better. [00:06:00] So it was a powerful moment of learning for me about what’s possible.

Karin: Yeah for me, a powerful, a pivotal moment was I was studying, I was working at a PhD program at the University of Maryland. I was studying self directed work team.

So really deep into this research. And I kept noticing that there’s this guy’s name, Dr. Henry Sands, he kept popping up. I’m like, gosh, this guy is doing this exactly what I want to do. He’s, all his theories seem spot on. And then this is back in the day before you could Google anything, right? So I am literally going to the back of journals in the stacks in the library to figure out where the heck this guy worked because it wasn’t even that obvious that there weren’t even bios on these articles.

And it turns out that he was at the University of Maryland. Two. But I was in the communication department and he was in the business school. So I literally ran out of the building, out of the library, all the way across campus. And I found his door and I knocked on his [00:07:00] door and I said, I just have to introduce myself.

I’m so excited to meet you. I was just so gung ho of enthusiasm. He sat there and talked with me for two hours about what I was interested, about his research. He said, I think we could collaborate. Go get that paper that you’ve been telling me you’re writing. Maybe we can publish it somewhere. And then, which we did, and then he took me to lunch and he said, Karen, I’m really curious.

Why do you want a PhD? And I said because I really want to do this vital work in organizations. He’s okay, I’m not sure you need a PhD. I think you need a contact. And he said, I want to introduce you to Margaret Sears, who is at at Verizon, who is doing this kind of work. And I think you should go get to know her.

And so he took both of us to lunch, introduced us a month later, I’m working as with her on a kind of internship thing. Two months later, she’s offering me a full time job to do [00:08:00] exactly what I wanted to do, lead self directed work teams and build organizational development initiatives. And, that for me is, was such a pivotal moment because.

Raise your hand, get, if you want something, be tenacious about it, go seek out people who are doing the kind of work that you want to do and you never know where it’s going to lead versus sitting back and saying, gosh, I don’t know how I’m going to get into this kind of work, right?

Go meet people who are doing what you want to do. Wow.

Porschia: Both of those stories are, that you shared are really powerful. I want to follow up on both, but Karen, did you finish that PhD? I

Karin: did not finish that PhD. And as it turns out, so my first, Career went full circle, right? So I stayed at Verizon for 20 years doing all kinds of executive roles.

And then I started to do PhD kind of stuff, right? Started to write articles, started to speak, and we wrote a couple of books. And so as it all turned out I’m not sure [00:09:00] I did need the PhD but it was so long circuitous way to get back to teaching the leadership and doing the original work that I was doing.

Porschia: Yeah, I love that. We have a whole podcast episode on should I get a PhD? Oh, interesting. It would have been great to, to chat on that topic. And then we have another one on just graduate degrees and should you get a graduate degree in general. So I love your story. And to your point about just going out there and figuring out what you want to do.

And really pursuing that David, for you, when you told the CEO about your thoughts on that marketing initiative, what was your role or your job title at that time?

David: I was a team leader. So I had a team of three people.

Porschia: Okay. And I am

David: a frontline supervisor.

Porschia: Got it. Got it. That’s great. And I just wanted to know that selfishly, but also for our audience, because to your point, sometimes people feel [00:10:00] like, hey, I can’t talk to the CEO, or I can’t talk to an executive unless I’m here, wherever here is right in their mind.

Another executive, a director, a manager. So I love that you just, have the confidence to do that.

David: I, and it’s one of those things that if I were coaching or advising somebody today, I would recommend they handle a little bit differently than the way that I did. So it was, I don’t know that it was as much confidence as it was angst and just desperation because I didn’t want to do that thing that in a way that felt bad to me and nor did I want to ask my people to do.

And so it was, I was at the end of my wits. I didn’t know what else to do. And the good news is there are a lot of things we can do.

Porschia: Yeah. So what motivated you both to go into business together?

Karin: So it’s interesting. We started out in business apart, and then got into business together.

We were like, we were both executives, then we both started our own companies. And we went to a business It’s a book publishing lab in New [00:11:00] York City independently. We were aware of each other, because of blogging and such, but we showed up and we realized that we were writing the same book, pretty much the same book.

And so after a series of conversations, we said, maybe we shouldn’t compete on this book that is going to go to the market. Maybe we should collaborate. It’ll be stronger if we do it together. And so we did. So we wrote our first book, winning well, a manager’s guide to getting results without losing your soul together.

Then we realized we had fallen in love. And so we got married and merged our businesses together. So that’s our advice. If you’re looking for true love after 40. I’ll write a book. I love

Porschia: it.

Karin: I love

Porschia: it.

David: Yeah. At the end of that process, you will either love the person or not really want to talk to them again.

So you’ll have a clear interest one way or the other.

Porschia: Yeah. I’ve heard a lot of attorneys talk about splitting up, business partnerships and calling them business divorces. So yes, the partnerships [00:12:00] I, can definitely tell should be strong one way or the other sometimes. So I know that you guys have written a few books, quite a few books you’ve got very interesting backgrounds and expertise in different areas.

Why did you decide to focus on workplace conflict now, or, as part of your expertise? Karen, you want to

David: tackle that one? So yeah,

Karin: it was, this is interesting because our publisher called us and said, Hey, we know we noticed post pandemic that there is a lot more conflict going on. And we think somebody needs to write this book called powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict.

Would you write it? Now that is not usually how it goes when you write a book. So we really, we did not say an immediate yes, because we’re like, huh, how well do we handle conflict? We’re a husband and wife team have just been going through a massive pivot of our training [00:13:00] organization through the pandemic.

Are we really good at this? And we’ve really thought about it and said we’ve certainly learned a lot of things and we, and we have had to really be, make a concerted effort because you can’t turn a negative conflict off just because it’s time to go to bed because if you’ve had one, in, in your business.

So we thought yeah, we do have an important perspective. And one of the things we’re known for is really practical. We felt like we could break it down really practical ways. But the other was then once we made that decision, We also, our other books are research based, extensive research, and we didn’t want it just to be our opinion.

So what we went out and did was this World Workplace Conflict and Collaboration Survey, which we can talk about if you want, but That, really wanted to, before we set a full on yes to this, wanted to see is conflict getting worse? What is going on? And how can we be most helpful? And so I think our own experience coupled with doing that research really was what got us [00:14:00] excited.

About writing this book that we had been handed.

David: And then the other element that for us was important on this one is what we call our expert insights, but these are throughout the book. We talked to 25, 30 different business leaders, thought leaders experts. In their own industry or with a point of view on workplace conflict.

And invite their perspectives as well. So we really wanted to write a book that’s going to be practical, thorough, and really a guide that people can use. That’s going to make a difference for them right away. And I am very proud. I think that we have done that.

Porschia: Yeah. That’s great. I definitely want to get into the research, but before we do, I want to know, what is your definition of conflict?

David: So we start the book by saying that, listen, when there are problems to solve and people who care, and there are many things to care about, you’re going to have conflict. So you’ve got those differences of opinion [00:15:00] on things that matter to the people involved. And as soon as you have that, you probably have conflict.

Now. The important thing to note is that there are different kinds of conflict. And most of us, when we think of conflict, we automatically go to destructive conflict, right? The that’s the kind we shy away from. That’s uncomfortable. And we don’t like is where we’re starting to have a negative effect on one another’s dignity or things like that.

And we want to get rid of all that kind of destructive conflict. It’s unhelpful. Doesn’t, it tears down and it gets in the way of innovation, productivity, everything else. But there’s also constructive conflict where we’re truly collaborating together. And that kind of conflict difference of opinion creates innovation, improves creativity, changes policies for the better improves productivity and customer service and all those good outcomes.

So that’s what we want more of when we’re talking about those. Differences of opinion with people who really care.

Porschia: Yeah. I think that’s a great definition. I’ve heard people talk about conflict in different [00:16:00] ways. So I was really interested to hear both of your thoughts on that. I, a lot of our audience they know I’m a bit of a nerd. So I recently got a master’s degree in industrial and organizational psychology.

And I’m sure both of you all know what that is, which is great because a lot of people don’t, but conflict also came up a bit in, in our studies. So I’m excited to dig in. I find that a lot of our clients who are executives and professionals struggle with managing conflict and conflict resolution at work.

I think, Karen, you started talking a bit about the survey, but I want to know more about what inspired your world workplace conflict and collaboration research.

Karin: Yeah, so we had a hunch right that there is a new breed of conflict that has been emerging since this fast pivot to so many people working from home and what happened with that was also then people you’re seeing more global [00:17:00] organizations because if you could work from anywhere, why not spread the work around even more?

And so now you have people working across Yeah. Awesome. Different time zones. We saw really fast pivots in changes of expectations and a lot of assumptions being made, and that was leading to conflict, and so we wanted to understand what was the nature of the conflict now, today, and what is different than before, and are we experiencing more conflict?

Like our intuition said, which the answer is yes, and then we also wanted to ask this question, which is if we ask people about a significant conflict that they have had in the past. What would there be their advice to their former self if they were faced with that conflict again? Because that’s, I think, how you get to these practical solutions.

And so those were really the two big questions we wanted to ask. Is conflict getting more worse and what is causing that? And then what are the practi what would people wish they could do [00:18:00]better? So that we could translate that into practical tools and techniques.

Porschia: To your point, your global research included participants in 45 countries. Did you notice any major differences across the world when it came to conflict?

David: It’s interesting when you look at the data globally versus some regional breakdowns where you have a sufficient sample size and enough respondents and so forth.

Overall, the trend is fairly consistent. There isn’t a lot of deviation. Now, what we can tell you is that there are some countries that reported more than the rest. And Germany was one of those who, they had more people at 76 percent of those In Germany said that they’re reporting the same or greater amounts of conflict.

And that was the highest of any nation. The global average, the global was 70%. And so that’s the overall finding. 70 percent said the same or more Germany was at the high end. India was also one that scored a very high in terms of specifically on the more, almost half [00:19:00] of the respondents in India said, yeah, more.

And that was they totaled up to still 70%. They had a lot more. The more category and not as many in the same people want to know about the U S was slightly above average. Not that’s a good thing, 71 percent saying the same or more conflict. So some other high scores Mexico, Singapore, France.

Also higher probably not surprising to anybody that Canada fits the Canadian cliche, which is not entirely true, but only slightly 68 percent of Canadians, which was just below the 70 percent said they’re experiencing the same or more, but they also had a one of the larger, less conflict as well.

So they’re at 32 percent reporting less and get into the, what that actually means in a little bit, but those are some of the regional differences.

Porschia: [00:20:00] Yeah, I think that’s very interesting. Just to hear that about different countries. I lived in Germany for eight years when I was a kid, and I speak some German.

And so growing up, my perception of them culturally is that they are very direct just in general and also, in their speech and in their language. So that actually doesn’t really surprise me that, that, they had a little more conflict reported than some other countries.

In the US, that doesn’t surprise me either. So that’s interesting. And I think that’s important for people to understand when [00:21:00] they are working on global teams or just wanting to do business in another country, expand markets, things like that.

David: Absolutely. And so many teams are now international and whether that’s domestic international or truly international, there’s a lot more of that today than in days past.

Porschia: Yeah. So what are some insights perhaps from the research that leaders and managers can use when conflict arises?

David: One starting insight that I think is important, when we say that 70 percent of folks are reporting the same or greater amounts of conflict in the workplace, we go, okay what about that 30 percent who say they’re experiencing less?

Because when you tease into the data and look at that, half of those folks say the reason they’re experiencing less is essentially they escaped conflict situation. It’s not because everybody got better at dealing with it or anything. It’s because they left an organization or they’re saying, you know what, I’m working from home and I’ve just cut down my contact with other [00:22:00] human beings, which.

minimizes conflict, but also minimizes all of the, all the lost opportunities that go with that for creativity, innovation, problem solving and so on. So that’s a key element to keep in mind is just because somebody says they’re experiencing less conflict doesn’t mean that’s a positive outcome.

Other things to keep in mind, where is this conflict coming from? What are some of the contributing factors? And we found a pronounced, there were four or five things that really rose to the surface on that. So the first was overwhelmed burnout and understaffing. So the pandemic really shifted the economics and the workforce and so on.

And that continues to linger on. Equally tied with that poor management practices. And so these top two of overwhelmed burnout understaffing and then poor management practices right there, you’ve got a lot of headache and potential heartache going on. And when we’re talking about poor management practices, we do our, so much of our work is helping teams and helping leaders and helping managers.[00:23:00]

So we have a lot of compassion for managers because they are facing unprecedented change. You look at the Gallup organization. For the first time in history, the disengagement level of managers is higher than that of their employees. Why? You’re looking at an incredibly more complex work situation that managers are leading through today.

All those factors that Karen mentioned, complex organizations, matrixed organizations, cross time zone, cross geographic, cross cultural teams, all of that paired with, The need of those employees, which is a good thing, but, and they’re being more vocal about it today for connection, for support, for a healthier work environment.

And so all of those demands fall on that manager. And so learning how to do that the workforce, the organizational leadership workforce is still very much catching up in that regard. So those are top two. Karen, what would you add?

Karin: I would say that the it’s the implications. So when we ask people for [00:24:00] their advice to them for ourselves, 55 percent said, I wish I had stayed more calm and 21 percent said, I wish I had talked about it or talked about it sooner.

And so why don’t people stay calm, and why don’t they talk about it sooner? They don’t have the skills to do that, right? And so how, that is what was really obvious to us, that we needed to give people really practical ways to de escalate their own emotions, to de escalate an emotional conversation, so that everybody can stay calm, because it is nearly impossible to come to a rational conclusion, or to come to alignment, or to build a shared understanding of success, When you are too angry to be curious, when you’re furious, can’t be curious.

And so that’s really what we were I thought that data was really important as well.

Porschia: Yeah, so I’m gonna guess that and let me know if I’m wrong, but I’m gonna guess that’s where some of your powerful phrases might come in. [00:25:00] So can you tell us more about the powerful phrases that people can use when there is conflict?

Karin: Yeah, so in the book we talk about four dimensions of productive conflict. Are we connected? So do we know each other as human beings? Do we have clarity? Do we have shared understanding what success looks like? Curiosity, are we really showing up genuinely interested in one another’s perspectives and what alternative outcomes are possible?

And commitment, are, are we really driving towards a a shared understanding of what we’re going to do next and aligning towards those next steps? So we have 12. Is that goat? Greatest of all time. Powerful phrases. So three for each one of those dimensions. And we start there because that is a, you can’t possibly script conflict for every conflict situation anybody’s going to ever have.

But if you could say how do you show up really connected in this conversation? How do you show up really curious in this conversation? So I’ll let David share a couple of the goats.

David: Yeah. As you think [00:26:00] about these dimensions of conflict, connection, clarity, curiosity, commitment there’s two sides to the coin.

First is the more we can invest in those four dimensions before we have the extreme differences of opinion, the easier it is to navigate those conversations. The more I know you as a human being, the more we have clarity about what success looks like, the easier our conversations are going to be.

And then on the flip side, when we do find ourself in the middle of one of these conversations, those same four dimensions are the places to look to say, okay, what is this conflict about? It’s always one of those four, or some combination might be two or three or all four of them. And then there are also the road through the conflict.

So a couple of goat examples. Let’s talk about connection for a moment. You find yourself in one of those like, Ooh, your temperature just started to rise. Ooh, I’m in a conflict. I’m feeling uncomfortable. Okay. What’s going on for the other person? Let me connect with them. I know what’s going on for me.

Hey, tell me more. Just a simple, [00:27:00] tell me more, gives us a break. Listen to them. Tell me more helps them feel seen, feel heard, feel connected. Oh, you genuinely care about what I have to say. Another one, if you’re maybe starting the conversation or responding to it or picking it up is listen, I really care about you.

I care about. This team, this project, whatever it is that you’re talking about. And I’m confident we can find a solution that we can all work with, so starting with that intention of caring for the person, the team the situation is another greatest of all time way to start those conversations.

Clarity, a couple for clarity. This is one of our very favorites. What would a successful outcome do for you? So often when we’re in conflict conversations we have dug into a position that I’m taking, this is what success is, this is what success is. And it becomes hard to look beyond that. But if I can ask, what would a successful [00:28:00] outcome do for you?

I’m finding out what they’re actually trying to accomplish. And with that information and my own information, which I can also contribute, now we’re in a position to start coming up with some meaningful solutions. That we can work through when you’re curious about those, but until we actually know what it is we’re trying to solve for, it’s going to be difficult to resolve a conflict or find some solutions.

And so the at work, when we’re in workplace kind of situations, so often what we’re trying to do is make our boss happy or follow the instructions we were given. Sometimes we both have the same set of instructions, but we’ve interpreted them differently. And so asking those kinds of questions helps us to uncover the opportunities to get on the same page and move forward together in ways that we might not have had.

So those are a couple examples for connection and clarity.

Porschia: Wow, though, that was great. I don’t know if you all could see me, but I was writing those down. And I think those are definitely writer downers for the people listening [00:29:00] now from your research, did you all find out anything when it comes to the sources of these conflicts?

What might cause someone to need to, think about the four C’s did that

Karin: come

Porschia: up

Karin: at all? Yeah we saw a number of what we’re calling conflict cocktails. Cause these. Conflicts are complex so we’ve given some labels to these, but what what is we call the wedge driver? So you’ve got people who are facing a lot of uncertainty and unclear expectations that have come from a fairly Fast organizational change.

Now you’ve got people scattered across multiple time zones and without, and there, and yet they are longing for this human connection, right? So you’ve got this very complicated conflict. And so what is really behind all that really comes down to unclear expectations. So I, I expect that when we do our one on ones, it’s only common courtesy that you’re going to put your camera on, right?

Now, that may just be an unspoken [00:30:00] expectations, but then I could get be like how rude is she that she’s not putting her camera on? She does it. Doesn’t she respect my position? Doesn’t she? Is she not invested in this job? And I’ve told myself all this story and yet it may be that we have never talked about putting the cameras on and you’re like I have 18 different meetings to this in the next two days and I am exhausted and this one I have already have a great relationship with Karen.

So why do I need to put my camera on? I don’t know. I’m just going to use this one to take a break and abate my zoom fatigue. Now, all of that could create a lot of anxiety and drama and how it could get simplified is how are we going to do things around here? Are we going to have our cameras on when we do our one on ones?

Yes or no, or sometimes, and if sometimes how are we going to decide? And I think it’s so the more you can be clear about, okay, we’re, you can work from anywhere. That we have office occasional but on the days that you’re remote, you can work from anywhere. That is what the policy says.

[00:31:00] And now this is true story. Just watch this all play out. That works great until you, you are trying to get ahold of your coworker. They’re not returning your emails. You can’t seem to figure out where they are. And then you go on LinkedIn and there’s a picture of them at a petting zoo with a zoom trying to do that.

And then they’re responding to every person’s comment on this thing. And they’re like they’re engaging with this person, but they’re not engaging with me. And the real challenge is does work from anywhere mean you can work from a petting zoo. And so really finding clarity of expectations is one of the most important things in this new in this new nature of conflict that we have.

David: And the other element that goes with that is on the commitment side, which we haven’t talked about yet is even people who are good at having the conversation, they realize, Oh, I need to have this conversation. And so they work through it, but they don’t come to a mutual shared plan forward and some ways to hold [00:32:00] one another accountable.

And so you have all that work and that conversation, but then it falls apart. And so you end up in Groundhog day going over and over. And that’s another big contributing factor that we see quite a bit in our work with clients and the conversations and the research that we’ve done. And so one easy way to abate that, and we call it scheduling the finish, but this is also a goat.

It’s the goat number 12 of our favorite greatest of all time phrases, but it’s this let’s schedule time to talk about this again and see how our solution is working. And if the three of us make an agreement that as we’re working through our data sharing on this project and all right what we’ve been doing isn’t working, but okay, let’s figure this out.

Okay. We’ve got a plan. Great. Let’s schedule a meeting with the three of us at three 15 next Friday. So we give ourselves in a week and a half. And see how it’s going and just scheduling that 15 minute meeting to review how it’s going. What does that do? It increases the likelihood that all [00:33:00]three of us are going to follow through on our commitment.

It also gives us a chance to pressure test our commitment. Can we actually, if we say we’re going to do this and meet it in 10 days, can, is that going to work? Can we actually get that done by then? Yeah. Okay. That feels right. Good. And then the third thing it does for us is it gives us a chance. To deal with exceptions.

So we make a good agreement, but then our boss comes along with a fire drill from, their manager, the vice president has this issue. And then there’s this customer blowing up the phone. Okay. Wow. Now we’ve got a meeting on the books 10 days from now we get together. Hey, did you do that thing?

No, I didn’t either. Why? Oh, we had this big deal happen. Okay. Let’s regroup. Let’s reaffirm our commitment and keep going. Without that conversation, what happens? We, none of us followed through on our commitment. Now trust erodes and it’s that much harder to recover the next time. So just that one phrase, let’s schedule time to talk about this and review our solution, see how it’s working and then follow through on that makes a [00:34:00] tremendous difference in what happens as a result of the conversations we do have.

Porschia: Wow. All of that seems. So helpful. I’m just thinking and replaying different scenarios that have happened in my working life using some of those and I do think they could have gone differently. So you both touched on remote work a little bit earlier, but I want to know, from the research, did you notice any differences with conflict specifically based on remote hybrid or in person working environments?

David: Yeah the first thing in the data when we talk about people see reasons for the greater amounts of conflict 10 percent of them did specifically site remote work issues as contributing factors. And there were another 11 percent who said that. People not being in the office was also a source of conflict.

And so not seeing each other the same way. Together you have 20 percent combined in [00:35:00]different ways, citing remote work issues as contributing factors. And Karen mentioned norms are one of the biggest issues. So you’ve got the policy changes of organizations trying to figure out whatever they’re going to do.

And there’s no one answer for every company getting clear about what that answer is and then what are your norms related to it and getting clarity of expectations. So many organizations are struggling with that and that really came out.

Porschia: Wow. Tell us more about the book

Karin: and also let’s grow leaders. Oh, thank you. The book is called Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict, What to Say Next to De stress the Workday, Build Collaboration, and Calm Difficult Customers. And it is designed to be, you can read it all the way through, but it’s also designed to help you if you are in an What we call an ace and acute conflict emergency.

So your boss is turning into a micromanager. Somebody steals credit for your work. You’re not your boss doesn’t see your genius. You’ve got a passive aggressive [00:36:00] coworker. People are gossiping about you. What do you do? And you can just go to the table of contents and find the chapter. And we will give you a couple of really powerful phrases that at least give you an idea to get started there.

And they are all related to this four concepts four dimensions of productive workplace conflict. So that’s the book. And then our company is called Let’s Grow Leaders. And we’re really known for practical tools and techniques for human centered leaders. So we do long term leadership development programs, keynotes, executive developments.

All that stuff. We write a blog. David also has a podcast called Leadership Without Losing Your Soul. And I do a show called Asking for a Friend. Lots of ways to to learn more about practical ways to be a human centered leader.

David: And one of the things I want to make sure listener, you can go to conflictphrases.

com and it will take you to the book page. There is there a resource where you can download sample chapters of the book. So you can take a look at the first couple of chapters. There’s a, an [00:37:00]entire we call it the conversation collaboratory, but it is, what is it, Karen? 35 pages. It’s a big free guide to help you navigate these conversations and actually work through all these conversations with your team.

And so whatever your role, that’s a resource that you can use to do that as well.

Porschia: Free. All free. Even better. Even better. So we’ll be providing a link to your website and your other social channels in our show notes so people can find you online. But now I wanna ask you both our final question that I like to ask all of our guests.

How do you think executives or professionals can get a positive edge in their career?

Karin: To me, one of the most important things you can do to get a positive edge in your career is to really have a deep understanding of what Breakthrough results look like so that is one of the things that I think made me very successful in my roles at Verizon I would always start a conversation with [00:38:00] my boss at the beginning of a new role or the beginning of a new year And I would say what would it look like for you to get to the end of this year and go?

Wow, that was a spectacular year and usually when I first asked the boss that they would go It’s a really important question because our scorecard has 50 things on it. And so you want to get them and what we call our most important thing. You want to really have clear alignment with your boss about that.

You’re going to keep yourself and your team focused on something that is really strategically important that everybody’s paying attention to. Because one of the things I think that people often do is. They can go really put a lot of energy into some little thing and they really do great. And they go to their boss and are like, didn’t I do this wonderful thing?

And they’re like, yeah, but it wasn’t really the strategic thing that everybody else cares about here. So for me, that’s one thing is just really aligning on success for your career.

David: And if that is a results focus, I’m going to put [00:39:00] mine on the relationship focus and specifically the way that I summarize this is to embrace the reality that everyone in your organization is a volunteer.

And what I mean by that is not whether they’re paid or not. I obviously people are paid. And what I mean by that is everyone has a choice about how they’re going to show up every day. We all have that choice and we all make that choice every day. Am I going to show up today and do the bare minimum to get by?

Am I going to show up today and really think creatively, innovatively with a problem solving hat on looking at what those bigger picture goals are and how we can contribute to them. What is going to make the bigger difference for our team, for our customer, internal customer, whoever it might be, that’s a choice we all make every day.

And as a leader, once I recognize that how a person chooses to show up every day, especially if it’s at those higher levels, that’s a gift, It changes my frame of reference from whatever compulsion might have been to [00:40:00] gratitude and a focus on influence. And how do I draw out, how do I draw out that choice from each person?

And so when I can embrace that everyone is a volunteer and start to lead that way, it changes the game changes. Everything you do is

Porschia: wow. Karen and David, you have both shared a lot of insights with us today, and I’m sure that our listeners can use it to be more confident in their careers and when dealing with conflict, we appreciate you being with us.

Karin: Oh, thank you so much. We are absolutely delighted to have this opportunity to work with you and collaborate in this way.

David: Really appreciate the conversation. Thank you. [00:41:00]